Curse

Longasc · Feb 18, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

PvP has nothing to do in MMORPGs or similar games, as GW is not a fully fledged MMO.

It never worked out, and GW is no exception.

From the days of Ultima Online over Everquest and Everquest II, PvP was always wanted by the players, and in the end we had the same situation:

Almost all were not pvping.

In UO, there was a split in a PvE and a PvP land. You could travel through a gate and in the "mirror" world you could PvP, in the other you could not. Besides that, everything was similar. 90% chose the PvE side and PvP players were begging for others to come to Felucca, the PvP facet, to have some fun. Then they started threads about PvP being dead on most servers and so on.

EQ had no real PvP, EQ2 got some, and people downright rejected it. Only a small fraction really enjoys PvP, it seems. The majority plays MMO's for other reasons, whatever they might be, it is for sure not PvP.

Dark Age of Camelot and World of Warcraft might have the best PvP implementation of any MMO. Age of Conan is in development, let's see how it will turn out.

Realm vs. Realm combat was basically a separation of PvE and PvP, too. But it worked, as it was almost two completely different games you could switch between. And it was really cool and interesting.

World of Warcraft has open PvP and Battlegrounds. Open PvP rarely takes place, even on PvP servers. If it happens, it is mostly ganking of lower levels. It is not all that great. People usually go on questing or grinding, if they do not get into a personal feud with another player that backstabbed them. But there is at least the choice to PvP and getting attacked, which makes people look at their back at times.

Battlegrounds on the other hand are completely messy PvP, but people love them. They are similar to AB in some way, maybe they are the example for World Battles in GW2. Now they also got Arena combat, where the 2-3 man arenas are quite popular.

I guess 8 people for GvG are just too much for the majority of people to get together?? We have 3x4 teams in ABs maybe for this reason.

GW is at its heart a mix of an MMO with Diablo. Competitive PvP on e-sports level is possible, too, and all balancing is centered around it. But it simply does not take off. Most people just do not seem to play a game that looks like GW like that.

GW2 will be even more standard-MMOish. Do people really expect PvP will get better? It will be the same as in GW, plus the new World Battles. And those will be very "casual", or does one think they will be a more sophisticated pvp mode?

Bottom Line:

ANet should make a pure pvp game.
They did not do in GW, and they do not seem to believe enough people would play a pure pvp GW2.

On the other hand they could follow the standard MMO examples how to implement PvP in a by default PvE MMO world, and I think this is the direction they are taking.

Stockholm · Feb 18, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

On the other hand they could follow the standard MMO examples how to implement PvP in a by default PvE MMO world, and I think this is the direction they are taking.

And I think that will lose them a lot of players, players that come online to relaxe, I for one have enough of competiton at work (Athleate).
Many players have stated here on Guru the same thing, they don't want to be competing, they play for relaxation and will not accept being forced into PvP.
A-Net is likely to know by now through their servers the % of players that prefer one over the other or both, even if they don't publish the numbers.

Longasc · Feb 18, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Though it is not related to the topic, I fear they are creating just another grinder that might piss off everyone, pvper or pve player alike.

But there is always hope that GW:EN was only a crude idea sketch and GW2 much more refined and less grindy and repetitive.

Taki · Feb 18, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I agree with the high school graduate who would be a good role model for many adults here tbh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

...whether Guild Wars is a PvP or a PvE game doesn't really depend on what the developers have intended to do with the game, but instead, it depends on the players themselves, and how they choose to play it.

(http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=118)

On some other points, I don't know anything about the top100 guilds today but up to a year ago (maybe two? pre-Nightfall) most of the players were pretty cool. Some would pm after game with advice or congrats or just to clown around but never with any drama or bs, even after losing a chunk of rating to a bunch of unknowns. HA was usually a different story but the retardedness there was at a level where you couldn't help but laugh or feel sorry for some of the players. It was also fairly satisfying to stomp those very same morons out.

IMO though, some people just don't have the right attitude for pvp or any competitive situation where there might be criticism, failure, conflict, immaturity, abrasive personalities, or just other people with plain ole social/psycological issues. If you can't properly deal with any of the above and have a desire to improve at the game then pvp will probably lead to some miserable experiences for you. You'll also need to have a lot of free time to get/keep everyone together

Nevin · Feb 18, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

That's a very lame excuse. You go on to say that there's no creativity - so why are you concerned? One of my friends often misses interrupts on 1-2s casts on <100 ping, and they're in a solid top 100 guild. Reaction times aren't important for every role and class as long as you can pay attention to the game.

Since when did personal experiences with one friend define what the masses should do? Undoubtedly skill does make a difference, theres reasons like guilds like War Machine made it to the top. I know theres also the strategy and tactics involved in GW and thats technically the creativity. Theres still creativity to be found within the tactics aspect, knowing who to attack, what direction to approach from and when to spike. But within strategy (the builds and over all team set ups) are not creative anymore. So theres my point further defined for you, but on the other hand still I'm sure that one friend of yours is already in a very friendly setup in a guild. Once again the little comfort zone is present, do you really think a n00b with the potential of his same skill would have such an easy time getting in there?

Edit: You really have to step into those players shoes and see things from their perspective. Because like stated before, the process can be done gaining the skill, practicing, getting rank up and alas finding a great guild but its strenuous. Not to say titles are any better, but they sure do look more inviting. They're obviously already decent at PvE, so those big titles really aren't that big of a deal to them. They don't really require the same effort as PvP does- although it can be said that they do require more time. (Not including PvP titles, which take forever to get hands down)

Van Goghs Ear · Feb 18, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

See and that kind of attitude is what pisses off the PVE people who don't want to be lumped in with the "mindless masses" that the PVPers seem to think exist.

Had to go back a few pages to find this:

And you know those aholes I was talking about? They arent in the PVP chat, they're here on this forum, in front of me... who could I possibly be talking about? As for your last few paragraphs. Quoted for BULLSHIT. The reason I dont PVP is because PVP sucks. It has always sucked, I have never found any joy in doing it, even if I win. It was just some stupid thing that was there as a distraction when I didn't have anything planned out to do in PVE.

So its not that I didnt have the ability to do it, its not that I didnt try to do it. It was that I thought the whole concept in a story based game to have competitive play was dumb, and I didnt want to continue supporting a dumb feature in an otherwise great game. Get the idea now?

PVP is not the end all. Stop pretending it is.

As for PVE being only there to grind after the story is done. What's grinding about doing something you enjoy doing with no real goal in the end? I'm playing areas because I want to be, not for some stupid title, some stupid farm or some idiotic weapon. So where does that fit into your logic?

I'm not the one pretending.

And for the record, I never said PvE was bad, I said the sad excuses that PvE only players use to bash PvP was bad. They are consistently ignorant responses. All I addressed is that the same reasons to hate on PvP also exist in PvE. Jerks, title grinding, farming, etc. It exists in both sides of this game.

I feel justified in pointing this out because I actually play BOTH sides of this game. And every PvPer, even the hardcore ones have played through all the campaigns at least once (aside from maybe a few rare freaks).

So if I'm an A-hole because now I refuse to listen to ignorant PvE only players call me and other PvPers jerks for "ruining this game" because of BALANCED updates that make things like farming more difficult (in an already ridiculously easy game), so be it. You all have your prescious ursan way now and that will never be effected by PvP skill updates, so win/win right?

Lastly I'd like to address all this HA talk. WTF does HA have to do with PvP? Seriously. GvG go go. Death to Victory is Ours!

Ec]-[oMaN · Feb 18, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I do feel sorry for the majority of GW players, who have really never ever touched upon the best thing this game has to offer, and that's GvG...

enter_the_zone · Feb 18, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

I'm not the one pretending.

And for the record, I never said PvE was bad, I said the sad excuses that PvE only players use to bash PvP was bad. They are consistently ignorant responses. All I addressed is that the same reasons to hate on PvP also exist in PvE. Jerks, title grinding, farming, etc. It exists in both sides of this game.

I feel justified in pointing this out because I actually play BOTH sides of this game. And every PvPer, even the hardcore ones have played through all the campaigns at least once (aside from maybe a few rare freaks).

So if I'm an A-hole because now I refuse to listen to ignorant PvE only players call me and other PvPers jerks for "ruining this game" because of BALANCED updates that make things like farming more difficult (in an already ridiculously easy game), so be it. You all have your prescious ursan way now and that will never be effected by PvP skill updates, so win/win right?

Lastly I'd like to address all this HA talk. WTF does HA have to do with PvP? Seriously. GvG go go. Death to Victory is Ours!

Honestly, most people who have issues with PvP are not talking about GvG. GvG is "easy" in terms of the number of annoying arseholes you are subjected to, since they would primarily be in your guild.

HA is a totally different story, and, while you may not consider HA to be PvP, it is the most populated PvP facet of GW. It's also the facet which gives PvP it's reputation for being full of arseholes, specifically via pugs in HA.

I should also say that your view of PVE players is, frankly, stupid. Many of us treat GW in the exact same manner as we would a Single Player RPG like Oblivion. It has the side benefit of a built in chat client. I know many people who intend to get GW2 solely because their GW friends are, and it thus makes a convenient method of chatting to someone who may actually be interested in the game, even when you aren't.

shoogi · Feb 18, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Started as 90% pvp 10% pve, now it is something like 70% pve 30% pvp. Can't blame arenanet, Pve sells and adresses a much larger crowd, sadly.

EDIT- I also wanna express my thumbs up for Van Gogh's Ear's post.

Dronte · Feb 18, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

95% PvE, 4.99% casual PvP, .01% HA/GvG PvP if I were to say.

Hehe, agree with that.

Snow Bunny · Feb 18, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I do feel sorry for the majority of GW players, who have really never ever touched upon the best thing this game has to offer, and that's GvG...

QFT

The excuses solely pve players use to excuse themselves are really rather invalid. If you're a mother of four, and play on the weekends, then sure, you play GW casually.

But if you're some guy in FoW wearing your People Know Me title, complaining about PvP elitism, look in the mirror.

PvP is competitive. It breeds an attitude, that of competition. PvE can be conquered with any build, in a lot of cases, no build, an empty skillbar. PvP cannot be beaten this way, and demands a knowledge of skills and attributes and how they synergize.

PvP requires that you understand mechanics, and that you have a desire to win. You can't win a GvG with 60% death penalty, but you can beat most PvE with DP. PvP elitism is players' knowledge of their abilities in the game. Most 'elitist' pvpers were lowly players when they started, and had to endure a lot of fairly flippant criticism and rejection before they became gradually accepted.

Thus, PvP condescension towards PvE'ers unwilling to put forth the same efforts is natural.

enter_the_zone · Feb 18, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Again, you are associating PvP with purely GvG. This may be how you see the game, but most people view HA as the primary form of PvP. As I have said, I GvG and still condsider myself a PVE player, since our GvG is lighthearted. It's more about having fun with friends and working as a team than winning. Do we like to win? Sure. Is winning the be all to us? No.

The PvP I, and most people I suspect, have issues with is HA and it's extremely serious nature. All that crap about competition, for what purpose? Win in real life, it makes money (tangible reward) and has real risks. There is no risk involved in GvG, as there is no tangible penalty for loosing. Virtual competition is for people who don't have enough RL challenges.

Irrespective, I think a lot of people are missing the point of a casual gamer. I've been playing GW 28 months and have just over 2000 hrs of playtime. That's basically 2 hours a day, including weekends. Significant portions of this time have been AFK on 9 rings, standing around selling stuff, or just AFK on forums.

I do think you'd have to go a long way to find a purely PVE player who has more time logged than that, though I could be wrong.

Edit: That was another 18 minutes to the total, right there.

Snow Bunny · Feb 18, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Again, you are associating PvP with purely GvG. This may be how you see the game, but most people view HA as the primary form of PvP. As I have said, I GvG and still condsider myself a PVE player, since our GvG is lighthearted. It's more about having fun with friends and working as a team than winning. Do we like to win? Sure. Is winning the be all to us? No.

The PvP I, and most people I suspect, have issues with is HA and it's extremely serious nature. All that crap about competition, for what purpose? Win in real life, it makes money (tangible reward) and has real risks. There is no risk involved in GvG, as there is no tangible penalty for loosing. Virtual competition is for people who don't have enough RL challenges.

Irrespective, I think a lot of people are missing the point of a casual gamer. I've been playing GW 28 months and have just over 2000 hrs of playtime. That's basically 2 hours a day, including weekends. Significant portions of this time have been AFK on 9 rings, standing around selling stuff, or just AFK on forums.

I do think you'd have to go a long way to find a purely PVE player who has more time logged than that, though I could be wrong.

There is no money involved in HA. GvG is the most serious form of GW PvP.

enter_the_zone · Feb 18, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

There is no money involved in HA. GvG is the most serious form of GW PvP.

True, but many PvP Haters are hating on HA, not GvG.

Dono · Feb 18, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Is water for drinking or washing in?

Maiyn · Feb 18, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Ugh, lol. I HAD to weigh in on this after reading all the arguments

I also agree with most people not being able to gvg. It definitely has always been the most fun pvp 'arena' in the game, at least in my opinion. I personally feel the ATs (or well the 6 month lack of any sort of proper gvging) hurt the pvp community. Then the learning curve got way too high, etc etc,

As to the original question? It's what you make of it :P I started this game pveing in a Diablo-esque sort of way. Then I found team arena, gvg and tombs and it sucked me in

So I went from like 90% pve / 10% pvp to the complete opposite.

I know the state of the game isn't so great right now (pvp especially), but people need to stop complaining, you've been playing this game for what 3 years? I can't think of many games that provided that much satisfaction for such a length of time.

I hope GW2 has some sort of comparable pvp play ! That would make me happy

Tantra Existantance · Feb 18, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I think the majority of players started out PvE-ing because it's really a starting point in GW(learn how to fight & play the game), jump right into PvP and you're missing out on alot *thinks about the W/Mo + H/H AB days*(Eh...actually they still exist...scary).

Kashrlyyk · Feb 18, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

...
From the days of Ultima Online over Everquest and Everquest II, PvP was always wanted by the players, and in the end we had the same situation:

Almost all were not pvping.....

Which was the reason why I asked, did they make any market research before starting on GW? On when you read about their ideas for the World PvP in GW2, you actually get the idea, that they are convinced they can persuade PvE players to play PvP. Sad, after the failure of GW to do that.

Rocky Raccoon · Feb 18, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

I really think the only reason most people say they don't like pvp is simply because they're afraid to look like morons for the first few months while they learn, and rather than taking a chance on something that could possibly be fun, new and exciting, they stick to safe ole pve where the monsters all ball up and only have 4 skills on their bars and you always know what you're gonna face. Safe, boring, predictable pve.

Have you ever stopped to think that some people just don't want to compete against others? What is safe and predictable to you is fun and adventurous to others. You make comments like above and wonder why many people have low opinions of the PvP community in GW.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 18, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Have you ever stopped to think that some people just don't want to compete against others? What is safe and predictable to you is fun and adventurous to others. You make comments like above and wonder why many people have low opinions of the PvP community in GW.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I do feel sorry for the majority of GW players, who have really never ever touched upon the best thing this game has to offer, and that's GvG...

And I am feeling pity towards you and all those that agree with that post, because of your inability to understand even the smallest thing about people, namely that different people have different ideas of what they consider to be fun. Looking to all those that agreed to VanGoghsEar´s intolerant, condescending, insulting and fullfilling any cliches about the mindset of PvPers post, too. If cliches are true, are they still cliches?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Competition is part of the human spirit as greed and stupidity are. The "rat race" mentality is a package nurtured by media and corporate thinking. Everything has to be either-or.

Hardcore competitive players will always think themselves better than others simply because its part of their mind-set. That does not mean it's true.

If people feel better about themselves by degrading other, its their choice.

I play PVP and PVE, but have been recently playing PVE more now. I guess my ego and pride are shattered. BTW, where are the "great" PVP players now? How's their ego and pride?

A discussion on PVP and PVE, once again, turn to insulting and labeling and name-calling.

My take.

QFT

At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity: idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political ideas.
Aldous Huxley